That is what happened here. If it could not be delayed without risk to life it was cancelled
1 Like
Agreed, thought that’s a general principle of a civilised society and not something specific to COVID. Of course, it’s a widely flouted principle, too.
In my specific case, my regular day-to-day life is pretty hermit-like. Since the start of the original lockdown, I’ve barely been within five metres of another human being for more than a second or two at a time. I go out of my way to avoid them. I have all my groceries delivered — they leave them on the doorstep and then back away before I approach them and pick them up. I don’t live with anyone. I only work online.
I may catch COVID at WDW and give it to someone on the flight, but I think that’s a risk the other passengers took when they decided to fly. Since it’s a Manchester (UK) flight to Orlando and back, they’re all doing the same thing I’m doing: going to WDW. Once I leave the airport, I’m alone in my own car till I get home, where I’ll be alone once again.
At WDW itself, we’re all in a shared compact. I’ll keep my distance from you and I’ll wear my mask and wash my hands. You do the same.
Again, I stress I’m thinking aloud here. I’m not asserting any kind of right to go to WDW, nor am I even certain to go. It may not be possible anyway.
5 Likes
But was your governor urging people to come there on vacation at the same time?
That’s a valid point, but as of right now their governments are making that decision for us. I think the biggest argument against that is that places that are so poor don’t tend to have the most robust healthcare systems. These tiny islands and remote towns could be decimated by a major outbreak. Another issue is that people might continue working while sick, because they can’t afford not to.
Imagine somewhere like Costa Maya, Mexico… they start taking on 9,000 foreign cruise passengers 4 times a week and there will be increased exposure, no matter how much the cruise lines try to keep infected people off the ships. Within weeks a large enough portion of the population could be sick (or quarantined due to exposure) that the port cannot function. Then there’s the idea that the ports could become a vector to infect passengers too, especially if the people there feel like they have to work while sick.
3 Likes
I agree with the idea of a shared compact between travelers. I think traveling is relatively low risk to others if you’re someone who generally stays home, but I’m going to take a wild guess that introverts and homebodies don’t really make up the bulk of travelers.
There was no urging one way or the other really
I’m aghast that they did not already have this in place that’s my whole point.
Oh, I see. I misinterpreted your original response to mean they should have had it in place since March. You mean they should have done it sooner in this spike?
They should have done it since March 
2 Likes
In the meantime, there’s no work to be had and people are falling farther and farther into poverty and starvation. I don’t have the answer here, but I do know that the answer doesn’t just involve minimizing COVID. There are so many facets to this issue.
4 Likes
The risk is certainly minimal if you are doing everything you should, and I’m sure you are. Plenty of people won’t, because they’re ‘not scared of Covid’ or ‘not being told what to do because it’s a free country’. Those people who refuse to wear a mask or social distance aren’t just putting themselves at risk, they are putting everyone at risk.
And yes, it is more nuanced, there are so many other things to consider than just Covid.
6 Likes
I agree with you on this. It is not because something is not necessary that it shouldn’t be done. But risk/benefits matter. Going to an outdoor space on your own car is a low risk, high benefit activity. I even agree that WDW can be made low risk (stay outside!) - but flying there can’t.
There are always people who need to fly - returning home, visa issues, family emergencies, moving for a job. Flying internationally during a pandemic pretty much selects for people who don’t have so much choice.
Cast Members might be there not by a free choice, but by economic pressure. I will stop talking before I get into politics.
Kind of? By going you are transferring money from your account to Disney’s, which is a pretty big company. It takes a lot of money and a lot of people to matter to their bottom line, so your individual action is not that impactful, you are one in millions. Your impact is much bigger spending money almost anywhere else - for instance, if you are getting take out from a local restaurant, you are one of hundreds, and your money matters much more.
1 Like
So your argument is that my selfish desire to go to WDW forces cast members into indentured servitude?
OK, I won’t go. Presumably no-one else should, either. Great, now all the cast members are out of a job. How are they going to make a living now?
This morning alone in the UK, two very large retailers — Boots and John Lewis — which are highly respected, blue chip businesses that have been established since 1849 (Boots) and 1864 (John Lewis) have announced 4,000 job cuts (Boots) and 1,300 job cuts (John Lewis). That’s just this morning.
The two main UK to Orlando airlines are haemorrhaging staff. British Airways has announced 12,000 job losses and Virgin Atlantic 3,000.
Behind each of these jobs losses is a tragedy. Some / many of them will graduate into depression, domestic abuse, and even suicide.
COVID is real and it is nasty and (some) governments need to do a much better job of managing it. But direct deaths from COVID are not the only story. We either re-open our economies — of course with sensible precautionary measures — or we watch a very rapid decline into a very different sort of society to the one we’ve become used to.
UOR has been reopened for some time now. Are we hearing stories of contagion as a direct result of that? (Serious question. Are we?)
There is a difference between idiots wilfully refusing to protect themselves and others by marching into crowded spaces without sensible safeguards, and business reopening and inviting back their customers with precautionary measures in place.
My understanding is that Disney CMs are genuinely glad to see the parks reopened and guests reentering. Perhaps I am wrong about this.
7 Likes
Sorry, that came out wrong. I don’t think anyone’s desires or choices is what is forcing people to chose between food and risk. It has way more to do with public policy and government than individual action. I really don’t want to get into politics, but again, not about individual action.
I was just bringing attention to the fact that not everyone you interact with had a free choice. This is not true just for WDW, but for a large part of the world. This is not a call to not go out nor interact with anyone, just to consider that the very calming thought that “everyone here choose to be here” is not necessarily truth.
One of the many unfortunate things about the surge in Florida cases is that it can mask any UOR-opening surge, so there is still no answer for your question.
I agree with you that the economic cost is an awful tragedy. And by spending less money, I would be contributing to worsen the tragedy. I am trying to do my very small part in this by going against all my instincts and spending even more than I would usually spend - it is on different things, but hopefully with a just-as-good money spent/jobs helped ratio. There are enough low risk things to spend my money on that I don’t need to worry about the morals of spending on higher risk activities (I try to be an utilitarian, but it is hard).
2 Likes
I had a hope which, according to surveys I’ve read, seems widely shared, that COVID might ultimately make the world a better place. That it might inspire political change that would uplift the quality of everyone’s lives.
Then masks became a thing and my hope disappeared.
2 Likes
I know what you mean, I had a brief moment of thinking that this would lead to global cooperation and a more effective government…
Just for the record, I don’t think you are being selfish in considering going to WDW. You seem to be considering every possible implication of your actions for you and the world around you. Deciding anything right now is absurdly complex with always yet another variable to take into account.
4 Likes
Especially given that there is almost certainly no right answer.
6 Likes
As someone who majored in pure mathematics because I loved being in a world where things were things could be really proved and Truth really exists, I am having a hard time accepting that no matter how much I read/think/learn there won’t be a right answer.
2 Likes
Ditto, in every respect.
2 Likes
We won’t ever hear about it. Contact tracing isn’t really effective when your vector is moving freely from ride to ride with no schedule, and hundreds of others have been in the same spaces within hours. The best they could do is say “An infected person visited the park on 7/8,” but they won’t ever do that because A. it’s really a given that there is at least one infected person in any crowd so it’s just stating the obvious, and B. it’s not really useful information because it gives no indication of who may be directly exposed. The same could be said of any shopping mall or high-volume grocery store.
2 Likes
The contract tracers up here in MA are only looking for contacts where you were within 6 feet for over 15 minutes. With the way WDW is setup, this should be pretty rare.
2 Likes