I realize this response is going back a bit on this volume rich thread.
I think I do have some disdain for some protesters who are not thoughtful. Or allow themselves to be manipulated by instigators (professional or otherwise).
As for the Las Vegas mayor: she does have a point altho perhaps society has moved on. I grew up in a western state enough decades ago that I’m comfortable with the notion that I’m responsible for myself. I don’t want to have to have a building inspector sign off on my diy doghouse.
I interpret her comments to say you do your homework. If you’re comfortable opening and you do so too soon, you’ll lose customers (and maybe gain lawsuits). If you’re uncomfortable opening sooner and you’re financially able, stay closed.
This equally applies to individuals. Do your homework. Protect yourself. Go to this casino or not.
I’m all for helping protect healthcare workers - a large proportion of our family is employed thusly. (Makes for interesting Thanksgiving conversations at table.)
However, I’m also for individuals making their own decisions - that Libertarian bent. DH wants to go to the grocery store every day or so. It’s almost his only hobby, at 84. Am I concerned? Yes. I remind him to wash his hands when he gets home. He’s lived 84 years. Worked 73 of them. Has multiple pensions so he doesn’t need to do anything yet still (BC-19) has a part time job. A greater part of me feels he gets to choose how he spends his time. Especially if the grocery store is in a town of 600.
I keep thinking of a doctor we had about a few years ago. An Army Captain. He said do we want you to make heart healthy choices? Yes. Will we do everything possible to fix you when you have your heart attack? Yes. It’s what we do.
Most of our extended family want DH to remain healthy and alive. Yet they also want him to live how he wants to.
I was reading about those virtual tours- I know they’re doing them in my area too. We have a really, really tight market. I definitely wasn’t arguing home sales were gone, but they are definitely down. They were down 8.5% in March, most of which had no stay at home orders (and when most people weren’t as concerned about the virus as they are now). I’m willing to bet a lot of people are just staying put where they are, orders or not. Moving is an expensive headache during normal times. During a pandemic… I understand people being reluctant.
This. I think there’s an abundance of evidence that the economy started hurting before anyone was ordered to stay home. And will continue to even after the orders have lifted. The only question is how much damage did the orders do versus the virus itself? We won’t really know. At least not this round. As @Pod mentioned, we may have a chance for a do-over if that dreaded fall wave hits. Personally, I hope we never get to find out.
My son’s headgear apparatus thingy fell out like 2 weeks ago, I would happily go to the orthodontist to get that put back in. We are still going to the chiropractor. I have my first appointment with my midwife 2 weeks from today. If my hairdresser was open and following good protocols, I would take my boys for haircuts.
I would not necessarily choose to get on a plane right now, but there are places that could be (and are) open with proper measures set in place - one person/patient in at a time, ample time between to clean, etc…
I think we give ourselves too little credit. Are there idiots among us, yes. But that poll posted above shows that most of us are smart enough to stay out of big crowds right now, orders or not. If a business thinks it is worthwhile to be open and they can do so in a safe manner, let them.
Actually, there are people are buying online for both houses and cars, but without the notary of financial part available it doesn’t work. There are also people stuck in the middle of the process and own 2 houses at once. There have been local articles on these issues.
That’s unfortunate, though I don’t understand what this has to do with the discussion of the orders vs the virus having an effect on the economy? I don’t agree with laws that don’t make sense and leave people in limbo. I’m just contending that people who think the virus is killing people, while the government is killing the economy are simplifying the issue, and that thinking the absence of a shutdown order will suddenly make the economy that much better is highly questionable. I think the economic ramifications of this will be felt for years to come, just like the health ones. I do hope I’m wrong.
@sanstitre_has_left_the_building’s lamentation earlier reminded me of this comment I made (perhaps naively) in another thread (in what feels like another lifetime).
There is some truth to this sentiment though. All of us are human and are going to feel some amount of anxiety and disappointment during this time. Those with mental health issues are especially impacted. No doubt depression, suicidal ideation, drug abuse, alcoholism, spousal abuse, and other social and mental health related impacts are on the rise. Deaths from these causes probably won’t rival those from the virus, but the impacts are nonetheless real.
Not to mention that all of us are living watered down lives right now. Some of us are finding the silver lining by spending more time with our immediate family (honestly, this period will one day be the source of some of my most cherished memories - in retrospect!), but all of us are missing out on birthdays, church gatherings, work parties, dating, weddings, funerals, graduations … not to mention vacations. We are all essentially missing out on this period in our lives. Will it be 3 months? Or a year? Will we subtract 1 year off 8 billion lives in exchange for 3 years on 1 million people’s lives? (Forgive the utilitarian rhetorical question - there are no good answers so don’t bother trying to respond.)
We have to balance the toll the lockown is taking with the toll the pandemic is taking. Obviously, fully opening the economy will not make this better - the more death and infection we have, the higher the toll on perceived safety, which will hurt the economy just as much as a lockdown. But we have to think about what measures can reasonably be relaxed so we can live close to a normal life as possible without swinging the pendulum too far the other way.
Like I said earlier, I blame the virus and stay at home orders. But there are some things I blame the stay at home orders because they aren’t necessary and just going overboard with restrictions.
As far as those in limbo, they can’t afford 2 house payments for a long period of time. If this continues much longer, they stand the chance of foreclosing on at least one of those homes. Which effects the economy. The ability to purchase and sell homes and cars effects the economy.
I think until you live in an area that has more stringent restrictions, you aren’t going to understand the ramifications.
Back from CostCo and catching up…FWIW, about 75% of the customers voluntarily were wearing masks…
@sanstitre_has_left_the_building. As others have said, it’s definitely different and has its pros and cons. In pre-C19 times, I served with the elementary kids during all 3 of our church services on most Sunday mornings and would catch the sermon online later. (Probably not as noble as it sounds. I have NDPH and the speaker system tends to make attending service in person marginally unpleasant most days so I just serve instead.). Now, my family attends both online services (one kid centric, one adult centric) in our living room, together cooking up a leisurely brunch in between services. I do miss seeing everyone, but it’s still a special time for me.
@qwerty6. I second what @ryan1 said about YouTube TV. It’s worked much better than cable for us.
I haven’t been able to find the results of the NY antibody study directly but did read the NY Times article. These results are likely inflated due to selection bias, but not sure by how much.
As someone mentioned, some people are going to the grocery store every day just to get out. So those people are more likely to be infected AND more likely to be part of the study than someone that only goes to the grocery once every week or two, and people who are never going out and are only getting delivery and thus nearly certainly uninfected would have zero chance of being selected to participate. That’s all assuming the test itself is reliable.
Really what the study shows is the percentage of people “out and about” that have been infected and not much else. They need to be careful how they use these sorts of study results. It doesn’t give a true read on overall infection rate (overstated) or rate of mortality (understated), and even has limited use as a trend study as people’s risk-of-going-out perceptions change. Hopefully I can find time to watch Cuomo later to see what he’s doing with it.
@jxshulm Do you know what they mean by “isolate”? Is it just “stay at home if it’s mild”? My biggest question/concern about the plan right now is that they’ll decide to go with centralized isolation for all positive cases. Apparently China forcibly did that, at least to some extent.
FWIW, my DBIL is in real estate. It’s allowed under our stay home orders, but he is doing very little and he’s normally quite busy.
That would be me, although here realtors and notaries are working as they’re considered essential financial services. Construction is also continuing apace (including some touch ups on my house). Carpet cleaners, floor refinishers, even the bug guy have been here.
Which makes me wonder- what really is closed? Besides unessential things like bars, restaurants and doctor’s offices. My son’s glasses lens keeps falling out, I think it’s on it’s third round of superglue, but he can’t get new glasses, either. I guess vision is not essential.
Also, I know some people who work on their own have been ignoring the stay-at-home order, like my upholsterer. She goes to work in her own shop. Who does that hurt? No one, so no one cares to report her, either.
Because the stay-at-home order has been a little relaxed here, I’m thinking there won’t be much difference once it is lifted. The main thing is to keep bars, concerts, schools etc. closed for awhile. Personal social distancing and hygiene will be key.
I forgot to say, in our little town a man was seen walking down the street with a rifle and a holstered pistol. Which is not that unusual except he was walking down the middle of the street headed for the county courthouse and was a bit, shall we say, tipsy.
When the police stopped and chatted with him, he said he was very upset about the COVID19 shut down and wanted to talk with the officials. They pointed out it was 6:30 pm and the offices were closed, which diffused the situation a bit.
In the end, the man was taken to a hospital. He hadn’t broken any laws. It could have ended much differently had he been anywhere else but here. To their great credit, the SWAT teams that were all over the place kept their cool.
By ‘isolate’ they just mean stay at home with their families. No outside contact. Time will tell if it helps stop the spread, but our state has a stay at home order, so they really shouldn’t be going anywhere besides work before they were diagnosed.
For the NY data- I’ve read a few criticisms, some say the numbers is overstated, some under, but more testing is needed. The limitations that I’ve seen listed (besides the ones you mention) are:
People out and about were less likely to either be sick or have been sick recently, so actually less likely to have covid-19
They specifically did not include anyone under 18, which is like 25% of NY’s population
Not sure if not including children would affect the count either way though. Not a ton has been done with covid and kids, other than they fact that they are much, much less likely to die from this, which is a bit odd, all things being equal.
This was not at study. It was “advertised” so people who were likely infected and quarantined showed up to confirm they had it. That is why there was such a turnout that upset local representatives. I live in NY and that is what people are talking about and doing.
It is interesting how different places have different restrictions. Here, you can still buy/sell cars/houses. (I bought a new car…) Construction is still happening. If anything they are trying to speed up things like road construction while there are reduced people on the road. Restaurants are all take/out delivery only; most other places not deemed essential are closed. i.e. Things cancelled that affected me…annual Dentist visit, hair, massage, screening DI, my birthday
Whereas in Michigan, the Governor wants everyone to stay home for all reasons. Don’t even drive around, because you could get in an accident and require Police or something and expose them to COVID-19. It is draconian, which is what sparked the protests. Earlier EOs were more forgiving. But she has managed to utterly destroy anything the could help the economy that might still be safe.
