I agree that all things should be able to be discussed (and have considered and discarded the throwaway idea).
It occurs to me that we who are trying to get the best trip/experience possible are between a rock and a hard place.
I’ve been going to Disney World since 1974, when it wasn’t really a World. For several trips we got in free because so many family members worked at WDW. I think it 1988 before we actually had to pay to get in and that three day ticket was, in retrospect, laughably amazingly cheap. The rack rate at the Poly wasn’t tho.
Since then it’s been some kind of vacation dance to both keep up with the changes and discounts and still have fun.
Maybe besides the (letters I Can’t remember for planning stress) syndrome there’s the PPMPP syndrome (poor pitiful me pity party syndrome) when the stress is overwhelming due to even more changes by Disney.
If Disney weren’t trying to grab all the money they could we might not be trying to have ethics discussions.
I will agree, to disagree.
Nice talking with ya.
You all do realize that the “limited number” of Fast Passes for rides is 100% arbitrary, right? It changes based on the dates, crowd levels, park hours, wind, people dropping them or moving them around, new ones dropping, maintenance, tea leaves, and maybe even if the CMs feel like giving out some FPPs just for funsies, among other factors I’m sure I’m missing.
The thinking that a FPP can be “stolen” or “kept from others” is flat out nonsensical. You are giving Disney FAR too much credit in their ability to orchestrate and maintain such a detailed distribution (and if you think they can, just go take a good look at their website functionality and I’m sure it’ll change your mind).
It’s not even a well-known strategy! Anyone who isn’t a “super planner” doesn’t even know about it, I can almost guarantee. So what are you worried about? The chance of you missing out on a few theoretical fast passes?(There was no guarantee you would’ve got those “precious” FPPs anyway with the strategy, either.) And if all else fails, there’s always stand by. Want to do other things other than sit in stand by? Welp, life is full of choices and one can elect to give priority to a ride, or doing something else at Disney World.
Getting this worked up over rides at a theme park, or rather how people obtain said fast passes to those rides, seems pretty pointless and there are better uses of time.
Me! I can be the artbiter of all that is right and good.
Clearly I am not up to the tasks of actually embedding the quotes I’m referencing, but that’s a completely different skillset from making moral judgments. So it’s still all good.
Congratulations!! You got the job amiga!
Whoo hoo!
That seems kind of reductionary. There is a case that it’s not immoral, but the fact is by using these tricks you are getting a FP that would otherwise go to someone else, regardless of crowds, distribution, weather, etc. Maybe they don’t know that it should have gone to them, maybe they don’t care that it should have gone to them, but the person is getting something that someone else would otherwise get. I don’t see how you can dispute that.
Hand waving it away and saying, “Who cares because it doesn’t really affect you?” isn’t really the point. The point is that a person is getting something that they wouldn’t otherwise get using a system in a way that it wasn’t intended. That person knows that they did this. Maybe that person shouldn’t do it. There is some ethical decision being made and it is worth discussing, even if the ultimate impact on any given guest is minute.
(Disclosure, I used a leading reservation and would again in a heartbeat if given the chance. I asked the rest of my travelling party before doing so if they were okay with it).
I have no problem with leading reservations or throwaway rooms as long as it’s being paid for.
A leading reservation is one which is booked and then cancelled.
A throwaway room is one that is paid for but not actually used.
Then I misunderstood reading about a leading reservation and sorry about that.
I have no problem with paying for a room or campsite and not using it.
Thanks for the clarification.
You can dispute that when you realize it’s all virtual and therefore there’s no true limitations on anything. It’s all theoretical that those FPs existed in the first place. That’s the deal with “virtual” anything…there’s never a true limit. It’s an illusion that there is a limit (and a good illusion here, I’ll grant you, but still an illusion). If CMs wouldn’t be able to give out FPs on whims, and more can’t be suddenly generated with the press of a button after they’re all “gone”, then you might have something, but they can and so whatever “limited number” is completely arbitrary and saying “someone got a FPP that would otherwise go to someone else” is wrong. That’s like saying someone got an extra video game achievement trophy that would’ve otherwise gone to someone else.
You could just as easily say that those on 2-week vacations are stealing all 2nd-week fast passes because they had earlier ability than those on 1-week vacations during the same time. (yyyyyeah, no.)
And let’s not forget that these throw away rooms do not ADD fastpasses to someone’s account…rather just allows earlier scheduling access. Scheduling access they already share with those who’s vacation windows are overlapping someone else’s. Again, not getting anything someone else would otherwise get.
I didn’t say that. I said (more or less) that getting pissy that a few others figured out a way to get earlier scheduling access to line-time-reduction passes before someone else is stupid. I stand by that.
Debating the moral implications of taking advantage of a system’s design, any system, is fine… but claiming you’re stealing and thereby hurting others by exploiting this particular system and now little Timmy and Becky can no longer ride a ride they’ve waited their whole 5-years of life to ride because YOU stole their precious fast passes is absolute crap.
I’m not even sure how to react to this statement.
It isn’t theoretical at all. Disney allocates a certain number of FPs. While it is true that we don’t know how many, what we CAN see is that they “run out” of them (and it is up to Disney whether they add more later or not). That isn’t theoretical in the slightest.
And so, if, for a given date, Disney plans on X FPs for a given ride, if someone books a leading reservation and takes one of those FPs ahead of their actual allowed FP window, that means that someone else who is doing this “legitimately” may now be out of luck when they WOULDN’T have otherwise.
There is absolutely NOTHING theoretical about it. We can see it played out in practice. So I’m not sure why you are calling it that.
Perhaps it would better to say that the “harm” being done in this way is faceless. That is, you have no idea WHO you are “taking” the FP opportunity away from. But just because you can’t see the person, or ever have any idea who it is, is still, effectively “taking cuts” in line toward getting FPs ahead of those with a legitimate right to them.
I will grant you that the throwaway reservation is less clear. One might argue that someone is simply paying for the right to obtain FPs. But, it IS clear that it isn’t what Disney had intended…trouble is, there is no easy way for Disney to police this as they are starting to do for a leading reservation. While Disney is financially benefiting from the payment for the throwaway room, they are still losing out on POTENTIAL financial benefit because someone else who LEGITIMATELY wants to stay in that room/campsite no longer can…but if they COULD they would very likely spend more in the parks than JUST the cost of the accommodations. So, DIsney is missing out on potential profit.
The exception would be for a hotel that doesn’t fill up at the same price point as the throwaway reservation. But since most people seem to be doing this with campsites, when I checked into this, the campsites were filling up completely very early even for lightly attended days.
I didn’t. As we all know. I did it with an All-Star room. Of which there are literally thousands. And I don’t believe for a minute Disney ever achieves maximum occupancy in those rooms. And even if they do, it was only for one night. And anyway I cancelled it. And paid a $50 cancellation fee.
Not necessarily. I booked a throwaway room. I also spent hundreds of dollars on up-charge events. And eating table service for every meal.
Your argument leads to banning single people from staying in WDW hotels. A single person wastes three sleeping spaces. And they only eat one meal at a time. A room of four uses all the sleeping space and eats four meals at a time.
Except my one meal is a table service meal. And their four meals might be quick service. Or breakfasts they made themselves in the room.
(One of) the problems with FPPs is that it could be argued that (time and money) rich people are disproportionately rewarded. If you can afford to pay for a fourteen night stay and you have the time to commit to one, you’ll never worry about FPPs. If you can only afford a five night stay, then it’s a very different situation.
Um. I think you’ll have to re-read my argument. But that’s not in the least bit true. You are legitimately staying within the rules/intentions of Disney.
I’m focusing on people gaming the system in a way that Disney never intended.
Except they don’t. As evidenced by any time a CM gives out a FP for a long wait or just a nice “bit of magic.” Or a whole new round of FPs are released. Or a ride goes down and FP turns into an Anytime FP.
Which happens all the time.
I really don’t know how else to explain it to you. It’s pretty clear that this is not how it works.
No. It isn’t. Because it works EXACTLY like that.
Do you really believe that Disney cares, today, about anything other than money?
I am thinking that same day FP drops may show that Disney changes the amount of FPs at times?
Can we approach this from another direction?
Why do people feel so strongly about this?
Obviously I have skin in the game because I’ve used a throwaway room in the past. Once. So you might expect me to feel defensive.
At the same time I do have a conscience and a little voice in my head who tells me off when I do bad things, and I slept really easily after booking that throwaway room.
When I found a £20 ($25) banknote on the sidewalk near my house my conscience would not let me keep it, despite it being pretty obvious the owner would never be traced. I even knocked on a few doors to ask householders if it was theirs.
Surely @Randall1028 is right: the FPP system is like money. Central banks used quantitative easing to help their economies out, i.e. they printed more money (electronically). Disney can magic up new FPPs whenever it wants. And it does so all the time.
No, it doesn’t.
Again, it’s all arbitrary. Realizing that the “hard limit” that Disney wants you to think is there is actually not, removes your argument. Until CMs can’t give out FPs, Anytime FPs go away, and more can’t suddenly be generated based on Crowd Levels, there will never be the scenario where “someone got a fast pass that someone else should have gotten”.
people want to feel pious. 
(ok, that might be a bit far)