One of my friends and his wife (and 4 kids between ages 16 and 24 living at home) went to get vaccinated a few days after the change in the guidelines. I didn’t ask him if that was the reason, but I suspect it played a role (if not the primary reason). He was also the one in our group of friends that was not vaccinated so that may have influenced him too.
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“Oh! Let’s all play the “there is also no evidence” game”
Thank you!!! I have read through this thread with amusement. There are a few here who keep this thread alive by spreading unproven information from the internet and make it seem they are experts. They only person you should be listening to is your doctor!!! My kids ped strongly suggested they get vaccinated. That is who I will listen to.
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Even if you assume those deaths are vaccine related (from what I have read, they most likely are not related), then you are talking 4,201 deaths vs 600,000+ Covid deaths.
I’m not minimizing any death. They are all tragic.
And you are right … the are unknown risks with the vaccine. But there are known severe risks with Covid plus unknown long term risks with Covid. Many viruses stay in the body and cause issues later in life.
I’d much prefer to not have the vaccine and not get Covid, but that’s not a realistic option. Either a person gets the vaccine or that person is likely to eventually get Covid.
Based on the evidence out there today, the answer was easy for me.
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I didn’t say any of that. I’m sorry that’s how you read it.
I’m in agreement that Correlation does not equal Causation. That’s what my point was about the NYT article. They were making their case basing it on that theory, and I pointed out their inconsistencies. They can’t have it both ways.
I’m not claiming vaccines caused deaths. (Correlation equals Causation). I’m observing facts, just as I assume you are doing. The fact that we choose different responses to them is a reflection of our constitutional right to do so. I’ve said it before. I’m happy for you and your family that you have happily and freely chosen to be vaccinated. I’m sorry you can’t offer me the same. I do wish you well!
Thanks for sharing. I appreciate hearing people’s stories.
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I strongly urge you to reconsider. When my son was younger, his ped diagnosed him with asthma, without testing. Little did I know that would DQ him for the career path he’d chosen and sought since he was about 11 or 12. After three years, a couple thousand dollars, and a bout of depression over loosing his dream, (as a young adult), he was finally able to prove he didn’t actually have asthma. The ped, who we loved and trusted, and went to for 10+ years, made an honest mistake that almost cost my son his career.
I’m not suggesting not to listen to your doctor, just not to ONLY listen to your doctor. After all, they are listening to others too, and they’re not perfect.
Just sharing my experience.
Ok, I’ll amend that. I will listen to my doctor and the cdc and not opinions on a Disney chat.
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I appreciate you acknowledging this. I feel as though the answer is easy for me as well. Where there’s risk, there should be choice. That’s all I’m saying. (By choice, I mean choice without penalty.)
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That’s fair enough. I value others opinions and experiences, even if in the liner community. And I think there are often great resources people post here. I kind of thought that’s why we were all here. But to each his/her own.
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So, re: air travel getting going again, I guess I owe the makers of “Snakes on a Plane” an apology. Their movie wasn’t as farfetched as I thought. I sure hope they are 100% sure when a plane goes back into use, after storage in the desert, that there isn’t a stowaway! 
Qantas A380s parked in California desert attract rattlesnakes | CNN
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You’re implying it, obviously, otherwise why mention it? And your vaccination choices are your own. What we disagree on is that there should be no consequences for that choice.
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For what it is worth, there is a US Supreme Court case written by Justice Harlan (a known conservative, Republican and fundamental Christian) that ruled that a law in Massachusetts which required mandatory vaccinations was permitted under the US Constitution if the mandatory vaccinations were reasonably required for public safety.
As I understand it, the court said that if unvaccinated people pose a health threat to others in the public then it is constitutional for a State to impose a mandatory vaccine requirement.
The case is from the early 1900’s, but I think that case has not been overruled at this point so is still good law.
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right before the Spanish Flu pandemic?
@BamaJ “Where there’s risk, there should be choice. That’s all I’m saying. (By choice, I mean choice without penalty.)”
But of course there’s potential penalty, with ANY choice you make. Anytime you drive, there’s the risk of an accident. Not choosing to take that risk means that trucking firms probably aren’t going to hire you to be a driver. Any time you get in a plane, there’s a risk of going down in flames (my own personal fear here; I fly a lot, but am also medicated when doing so ;)); choosing not to take that risk means my husband’s firm isn’t going to hire you as a consultant. If you choose not to take the risk of cutting with a knife, the local restaurant will not hire you as a chef. Companies have a right to protect their clients and their other employees, in any way they see fit that does not conflict with someone’s civil rights. Many local businesses here are adjusting people who do not wish to get vaccinated to jobs where they do not have to interact with anyone else. The better employee you are, the more in demand your skills, the more likely they are to accommodate you.
You said vaccinations are very different than TB tests or drug tests; I do not at all see it that way; it’s still giving up a certain agency over your body because you want a particular job, and it’s your choice not to comply. And, btw, the TB test involves injecting tuberculin into your body under the skin. (And if I had a loved one in a nursing home that my DIL worked in, I would certainly expect them to have her be vaccinated against certain things, as they have for a long time and which she complies with, just as they ask her to wash her hands all the time even though it makes her skin dry and cracked and exposes her to potential staph infection.) I would certainly not hire a home health care worker for my parents who was unwilling to get vaccinated, and boy, do I consider that my right.
We do not make public policy based on what we think might happen to the people who do not comply. IE, we don’t set graduation standards based on the potential unemployability of those who choose not to meet them. There’s way too much guesswork there as to what the potential outcomes are. Are there going to be some limited choices for people who choose not to be vaccinated against infectious disease, especially in regard to which state they want to work in, or which particular industry/environment? Sure. That’s how life works.
Also, I am very sorry about the mistake your doctor made. But the difference between what ONE doctor says, and an individual decision made based on that (believe STRONGLY in second, and even third, opinions) and what is by far the preponderance of opinion of medical experts is different, especially when making public policy. And by far majority of doctors agree on this, just as they do over whether smoking causes cancer; we limit your right to smoke in many ways to protect others. (What’s the classic high school civics saying? Your right to swing your fist ends at my face?)
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Over a decade before that pandemic.
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That’s interesting! I know there’s a history around it, now I want to go look it up. Thanks for the distraction 
Definitely something I need to start getting more familiar with. The effectiveness of something like this is going to lie in if a majority of people believe in and support such a law or if the majority don’t. For example, not until after excessive lockdowns in my state did the public move to repeal an unconstitutional law granting the Governor unlimited authority to order lockdowns. It took the public getting involved to fix this problem. (And not even the majority, but enough.) People aren’t aware of these laws until they begin enduring the consequences of them. It takes boots on the ground.
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I highly doubt that a state will flat out require Covid vaccinations. I could, however, envision public schools requiring Covid vaccinations (with religious and medical exemptions). Of course, I’m not personally involved in any of these decisions so it is purely my speculation.
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I think they think they will have greater success if employers create such policies. But I don’t think it’s unreasonable to consider that at some point in the future, maybe not with this pandemic, they would.
I’m not trying to convince anybody to agree with my perspective of masks, vaccines, or Covid. I know I’ll never change anyone’s mind about that. What I am trying to convince people of is that there is more than one conclusion that can be drawn from the information available, and because of that, there’s more than one valid choice to make. I’ll add that just the fact that the US Supreme Court has tackled this issue tells me that it is a worthy argument and I’m not alone in my opinions.
My secondary purpose is to bring greater awareness to others (incase they’re not aware, because I really do not know), of the response they might expect when an entire segment of society faces the consequences of being basically exiled from participation.
Honest (but rhetorical) question. Acknowledged, businesses have a right to set their own policies. What do people think will happen as a result of mass restrictions? I know you said
We just did that for an entire year.
How far will the public go to force others to make medical choices they personally deem to risky?
I don’t have more to add. But conversation is better than the alternative.
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